I’ve been watching Bob Bailey’s Fundamentals of Animal Training DVD
For now, here’s a quote that I really liked that is from the first disc.
“Now I see so often on the internet that you want to create the thinking animal. What have I already said? The animal is already thinking! The animal is not thinking about what you want it to think about–that’s the only problem. It’s up to you to communicate clearly to the animal what you want.”
I think there’s a lot of truth to this. I hear lots of clicker trainers (and I know I’ve been guilty of it before as well) talking about teaching animals to think. It’s common for clicker trainers and positive trainers to promote their methods by saying that they teach the animal to think. Instead, I think what we often mean is that good training is about teamwork and clarity of communication between animal and trainer. It’s also about giving the animal the opportunities to make choices and figure out solutions on her own.
What are your thoughts on teaching an animal to think?
Excellent! Look forward to hearing more about this series. I didn’t know it existed.
It’s a DVD of a lecture he gave at some point. I’m really liking it so far. About 5 hours footage, so I’m slowly watching through it, but I promise a proper review when I’m done watching the whole thing.
Mary
I guess I’ll go out on a limb here and agree with Bob Bailey. 🙂
I think they they are thinking. I know it’s fashionable to say that they are not in some circles, but I they are. Maybe they don’t “think” the way we do, but if they can get distracted then they must be thinking about something, eh?
I agree with you Eric.
The more we study animals, I think the more we figure out that we aren’t that different from them. In many ways, a human’s basically a monkey with a handful more brain cells. And my mom was reading me something from a magazine this afternoon about how dolphins are smarter than monkeys.
It’s hard to know exactly what’s going through a dog (or horse’s mind). I’m sure there are probably differences in how they think from how we do. However, all the brain structure and processes are so similar— it just doesn’t make sense to me to say that we (humans) are capable of complex thought and reasoning and then to turn around and say dogs/cats/horses/etc don’t think at all.
Mary
Fantastic! I focus a lot of my time on training dogs and other animals. It is good to hear about new practices I can seek out. Thanks Cheers!
I think its good and bad. My first dog is very smart and we spent a lot of time talking to him and helping him figure things out. This makes him a little to smart though.
I completely agree that animals have their own thinking! The fact the we don’t understand them doesn’t mean they are stupid. Maybe they also don’t think the human race for very smart:)
This is excellent.
I believe that if given adequate time–free from stressors other than that which creates the learning–and a very relaxed atmosphere, and non-dominant methods, an animal can think.
They don’t need to be taught how to do so. They need to be ALLOWED to do so.
It is the human who has to find the grace and technique to allow this.
Exactly!
And so many times I hear people say the horse isn’t thinking or has stopped thinking, such as if the horse is very right brained or panicking. He’s still thinking alright, he’s just thinking frantic thoughts of “Oh my gosh! How can I escape!”
Mary
You don’t think they can stop thinking just as we do when we panic?
I’m curious about that.
Sometimes when horses freeze, I imagine them in a battle between their thinking minds and their instinctual hindbrains. Their minds are in lockdown, much as ours are when we get into extreme fight or flight.
Great points. I enjoy reading your comments as they keep me thinking!
I would think there’s probably some sort of continuum between calculated, calm decision making and total instinctive reactions.
At some levels of stress/panic, I would guess they are still thinking. Kind of like humans under stress or panic attacks— racing or irrational thoughts, but still thinking about something.
At extreme stress, it’s like you say, probably automatic motions, little conscious decision making. Only concentrating on escape.
Many times, however, when trainers say “the horse has stopped thinking,” I think what they really mean is “the horse has stopped listening to me.”
If we continually subject an animal to stress though, it will affect the thought process and ability to think clearly. Such as humans under long term stress.
This is an interesting article I just found comparing rats under chronic stress to human medical students:
http://psychcentral.com/news/2009/01/28/stress-disrupts-thinking-but-brain-is-resilient/3741.html
“The uncanny similarities surprised even the researchers. “I certainly don’t want to say that rat brains are just like human brains,” Liston says. “But it does show that you can use research in animal models to help interpret human neuroimaging results.”
I’d like to see more research on how stress of training and different training techniques affects performance and decision making of horses.
Mary
I heard a fascinating program on the Public Radio program “Radio Lab” yesterday about something similar. They were discussing how many things a person could concentrate on at one time. They told of an experiment where the simple act of trying to remember a string of 7 numbers was sufficient to throw the person from “rational” thinking to “emotional” responding. (I just love the way they set these things up!) So a horse/person under stress for any reason will have more on his mind than a string of 7 numbers to deal with!
As with most behavioral responses, it’s probably a continuum rather than on/off. Who knows where thinking and listening stop or start? Until we can sit a horse down on Dr. Freud’s couch while hooking him up to an eeg, we will not know.
While we wait for this opportunity, the best we can do is what you are doing, and what folks like Linda Tellington-Jones does, which is to eliminate as much stress in training as possible and to allow the horse time and emotional space to think/respond. With this type of patience, they can and will move beyond their initial instinctive reactions.
Thanks so much for the link to the article. You are always a generous source of really good information. Look for a blogpost on the subject soon.
You know Kim, the more I think about this topic and some of the thoughts you and others have left in the comments, the more questions I have.
Then I’m lost in thought and I end up missing my exit from one highway to the next. oops…
But I clearly was thinking about something, just not where I was going!
For now, we can look at body language, behavior, results. I hope someday further research will allow us to get even further inside the animal mind.
cheers,
Mary
I have to disagree just a little … as there certainly are training methods that shut down the animal’s mind. Dominating and domineering approaches, as well as correction-oriented training methods are the antithesis of “thinking.” They “punish” the dog for “wrong choices” such as spontaneous behavior … or “thinking.” To me, a “thinking dog” is one has choices, weighs the options, and chooses the behavior that is to both the dog’s benefit and to our benefit. That’s why I wrote THE THINKING DOG. It’s all about both the owner and the dog learning to trust each other and share a joyful, “thinking” relationship.
Hi Gail,
Thanks so much for your comment.
Do you think shut down animals are still thinking, though?
They’re obviously not making the same kinds of choices and decisions as a clicker trained animal, but I would say (from my experience) that they’re still thinking.
The majority of horses are still trained with traditional methods, negative reinforcement and corrections. Many are shut down. Some, however, are fun, enthusiastic, goofy and enjoy training. They seem happy and seem to be thinking.
Even if humans have zero choices, are they still thinking about something?
Thanks for commenting. As I said above, I think this topic still has many more questions that absolute answers.
cheers,
Mary
I agree that horses and dogs are already thinking. Ever watch your mare as she stands there chewing her grain and staring out in the distance? I think we will never truley know just how much animals do or do not think along the lines that we think. We as humans can only judge by what we know based on our method of thinking. Even when we ‘think’ we understand how a horse thinks, we are still comparing it to how we think.
Kerry, this is a great point!
Measuring animal intelligence and “thinking” is so hard because we want to compare it to human thinking.
Mary
One time I was walking along a barbed wire fence when suddenly a rattle snake started up in a bush next to the trail. I leaped away from the bush and into the barb wire fence in a purely instinctive “non-thinking” manner. I was scratched up but it gave me an insight to what it means to be reacting from panic. Now you could make a semantic argument that I was “thinking” all the time, but when people talk about getting their animals to respond with thinking and choices it is meaningless to say they are still “thinking” during a panic response. Humans like to play with words, but it is a waste of time.
You know Kim, the more I think about this topic and some of the thoughts you and others have left in the comments, the more questions I have.
Then I'm lost in thought and I end up missing my exit from one highway to the next. oops…
But I clearly was thinking about something, just not where I was going!
For now, we can look at body language, behavior, results. I hope someday further research will allow us to get even further inside the animal mind.
cheers,
Mary
Hi Gail,
Thanks so much for your comment.
Do you think shut down animals are still thinking, though?
They're obviously not making the same choices and decisions as a traditionally trained animal, but I would say (from my experience) that they're still thinking.
The majority of horses are still trained with traditional methods, negative reinforcement and corrections. Many are shut down. Some, however, are fun, enthusiastic, goofy and enjoy training. They seem happy and seem to be thinking.
Even if humans have zero choices, are they still thinking about something?
Thanks for commenting. As I said above, I think this topic still has many more questions that absolute answers.
cheers,
Mary
Kerry, this is a great point!
Measuring animal intelligence and “thinking” is so hard because we want to compare it to human thinking.
Mary
You know, I’m currently working on training my dog and I never gave this much thought (haha). I have been so caught up in figuring out how to make her listen to me, that I forgot that she is just like a child and needs to learn as well. I’ve been thinking, “If I were her, how would I want to be treated.” Thanks for the insight!
Thanks for commenting!
I’m glad the post gave you something to think about.
cheers,
Mary
hi – enjoying reading your posts- I look at it as “allowing” the horse to think in the first instance with crossover horses – and allowing the trainer to allow the horse to think with crossover trainers- then the communication can begin 🙂
Thanks for commenting Carolyn.
I think that this is a good way to think about this concept.
We step back, give the horse a bit of independence and control, and let him have more say in the training process.
Mary