I recently watched one of Mark Rashid’s DVDs, Ground Driving 101
, after renting it from Giddyupflix. I was interested in watching this DVD because I love Mark Rashid’s books and would like to start with some ground driving work with a few of the rescue horses. Overall, I was not very impressed with this DVD.
The DVD, which is about an hour and a half, starts out by covering why ground driving is important, the basic tools and equipment, how to use the rope to create “energy,” and the basics of desensitizing the horse to the rope. Mark Rashid does a great job of covering how to desensitize your horse and get him use to the ropes. This is essential for your horse to be comfortable with ground driving or long lining.
First, Mark discusses touching and rubbing your horse all over his body with the coiled rope. Then, Mark gets the horse use to the pressure of the rope. He practices leading the horse from a loop of rope around a foreleg or hind leg. He also tosses the rope around the horse’s hindquarters and “unwinds” the horse. These exercises are important so that the horse knows how to move away from the pressure of the rope, both for ground driving and in case the horse ever gets caught in the rope.
Mark Rashid then demonstrates lunging and discusses how lunging helps build the skills needed for ground driving. Then DVD then covers ground driving in a circle, ground driving to targets, and ground driving with a bit. The final short section discusses how to make your own lead ropes and long lines.
The actual ground driving parts of the DVD (in a circle, to targets and with a bit) are quite short, taking up a little less than half an hour all together. My main problem with the DVD is that the horse Mark Rashid is working with throughout the DVD already is experienced with the longing and ground driving exercises shown in the DVD. There is a huge difference in watching a horse who already knows what to do and watching a trainer work through the teaching process and common problems with a horse that is new to an exercise such a ground driving. By using an experienced horse, the DVD is more a discussion and testament to Mark Rashid’s interpretation of ground driving, rather than an instructional DVD.
Also, I was not at all impressed with the driving to targets part of the DVD. Mark Rashid uses this exercise to start practicing driving in straight lines and to give the ground driving a purpose. The horse looks noticeably stressed on several occasions during this segment. She can’t quite figure out what is being ask and tries different possibilities such as backwards or sideways before figuring out exactly where she’s suppose to be standing. She seems confused about what exactly she’s suppose to do. Towards the end the mare seems to get the hang of it. There really isn’t any reward for the mare doing the right thing, which is one reason it takes her awhile to figure it out.
I wouldn’t recommend buying this DVD if you’re looking for resources on ground driving. The DVD is interesting to watch, but lacks a easy to follow, step by step approach. Also, it’s harder to understand the teaching process since the horse has already been exposed to longing and ground driving. I love reading Mark Rashid’s books and have heard good things about his DVDs. I still plan to watch a few of his other DVDs to see if I like them better.
Thanks for reviewing this DVD. A step-by-step and very clear approach is very important for me. I can’t stand it when someone tries to show me something yet doesn’t do it clearly enough for me.
This is quite possibly the worst (written as well as thought out) review of any product I’ve ever read. The entire thing is full of contradictions. On one hand the reviewer says she doesn’t like the fact that Mr. Rashid used an experienced horse because “There is a huge difference in watching a horse who already knows what to do and watching a trainer work through the teaching process and common problems with a horse that is new to an exercise such a ground driving.” Then in the very next paragraph the reviewer complains because the same horse “looks noticeably stressed on several occasions during this segment” on teaching the horse to “target” while driving. In other words…the reviewer wanted to see how to relate to issues that come up, but when they do, she doesn’t want to see them? I don’t get it.
The reviewer also made a point to say that the time spent ground driving and longing took around 30 minutes (suggesting not much time was spent on the ground driving part of the DVD) but then also said it took “a while for the mare to figure it out” in regard to the targeting part of the DVD (suggesting the mare was stressed for an extended period of time). I have had the opportunity to watch this DVD since first reading this review, and the mare in question picked up on the targeting aspect of the process in less than five minutes. It is important to note that there were no cutaways during that part of the DVD, meaning the process was filmed in real time. Five minutes to teach a horse how to target without the use of treats and from thirty feet away attached to two driving lines does not seem like a lot of time to me. Nor did I notice the mare overly stressed during that process as the reviewer suggests. I further disagree with the fact there were no releases during the targeting exercise. There obviously were, albeit they were very small, otherwise the horse wouldn’t have learned the task to begin with, and certainly wouldn’t have learned it as quickly as she did.
In conclusion I believe the reviewer missed the whole point of the DVD. The title “Ground Driving 101” suggests that it is an introduction to ground driving, in other words, how to get started with the process. And in my opinion and as an instructor with over thirty five years of experience, I believe the DVD does a wonderful job doing that very thing. Unlike the reviewer, I would highly recommend this DVD to anyone looking for an introduction to longing and ground driving. It is very informative and packed with information that is easy to understand for the novice as well as experienced horse person.
Sandy
Hi Sandy,
Thanks so much for the long comment. I appreciate you taking the time to share your opinion. One of the most interesting things I find about talking with other trainers is how our different perspectives and past experiences greatly color how we view different training situations. Obviously, you and I watched the same DVD but came away with very different conclusions!
As you point out, the horse does seem to be inexperienced with the target section. However, for the rest of the tape, the horse appears pretty experienced with the tasks. I would have liked to see Mark Rashid teach a green horse to be comfortable with ropes, practice the lunging exercises with a horse new to circling and ground drive a horse who has never experienced ground driving before. I liked seeing the few issues that did come up, I just would like to see more indepth footage and explanations of how to deal with potential problems at all stages of the training.
“Five minutes to teach a horse how to target without the use of treats and from thirty feet away attached to two driving lines does not seem like a lot of time to me. Nor did I notice the mare overly stressed during that process as the reviewer suggests.”
Stress is a label and has different connotations to different people. What I saw was a horse that was high-headed and tense throughout her body. She did not completely understand the task. When she got to the target, she’d move away and then had to be corrected and brought back. At one point, she backed up half the length of the pen rather than go forward, quick movements, head held high with a worried look on her face. She seemed to be trying out different things, trying to figure out what worked, rather than understand what she was suppose to do.
It’s impossible to eliminate all confusion and frustration from the learning process. However, I’m a big believer that if and when we can eliminate it, we should! For me and my horses, 5 minutes of stress and confusion related behaviors while the horse tries to figure out what is correct is 5 minutes too many. If this had been done in 2 parts—teach the horse to target and then apply targeting to ground driving, it would not have taken anymore time, maybe even less time. Also, it would have likely been a more positive learning experience for the horse, as she would have made less errors.
Traditional training often forces the horse to learn by trial and error. The trainer gives the cue and horse has to figure out what the cue means. And horses often figure this out fast, especially if the trainer is skilled at negative reinforcement (pressure/release). However, wrong responses then have to be corrected, which is stressful for both horse and human. Instead, I find if I build behavior in smaller increments, reinforcing even the slightest try, I can eliminate much of the confusion and many of the wrong responses.
cheers,
Mary
Hi Mary,
To be honest, don’t you think anything that doesn’t match up with the way you feel horses should be trained will elicit a negative review on your part? In other words, if Mr. Rashid had worked with a inexperienced horse on desensitization with ropes, etc, and the horse showed signs of stress, you would have had the same negative reaction to it? Example…”the horse became noticeably stressed during the desensitization process…this could have gone much easier and quicker using positive reinforcement.”
There seems to be this idea lately that a horse that shows any kind of stress is a bad thing, when in reality it is a part of life, not just for horses but for all living things. Not only that, but we all have naturally built in mechanisms to cope with stress (horses included). Along those same lines, a horse who has worked through a stressful situation, whether by itself or with a human’s help, learns how handle stress better than one who has been taught to avoid stress. I’m sure you are learning this in the classes you are taking at UNT.
One other thing and then I’ll be quiet 🙂 Here’s a question for you. What method is used in the horse world when one horse is teaching another a task, such as moving away from a pile of hay? Is it positive reinforcement, or is it pressure and release? Horses hit the ground understanding pressure and release, so in my mind it isn’t the monster technique a lot of people make it out to be. How the technique is used is what causes the problem. I have seen a lot of horses who have been trained in positive reinforcement over a long period of time who become pushy with their owners, rush through tasks just so they can get the treat at the end, and sometimes even perform the task with ears pinned tails wringing and feet stomping. Why? Because the technique wasn’t used properly. The same thing can happen with a horse who is trained with pressure and release. By the same token, there are a lot of horses out there, some trained with positive reinforcement, some with pressure and release (I don’t believe that is negative reinforcement) that are equally as happy. In the end, isn’t that what’s important, rather than what technique was used to get it there?
The horse Mr. Rashid used for the DVD understood the task in a relatively short period of time, then happily did it thereafter. The stress she went through to get there was minimal under the circumstances, and now folks who would use the technique he prescribed will understand how to work through a similar situation having seen the stages the horse went through to get to a balanced state of mind…which in my opinion, was the whole point of the DVD. Remember, the title of the DVD wasn’t “Ground Driving 101 – Using Clicker Training”. That may be a DVD you might think about putting out. If you did, I would defend it just as strongly as I am this one, as I feel techniques should be judged on their own merit, not against each other (which is what you’ve done here). You are comparing positive reinforcement to pressure and release – apples to oranges. Positive reinforcement isn’t better than pressure and release. It’s only better for you. Just as pressure and release isn’t better than positive reinforcement. They are simply different means to get to the same end.
Thank you very much for allowing me to express my opinion.
Boy am I late to the game! Thanks for hashing it out ladies. It gave me a well rounded review of the video and whether or not to buy/rent 🙂
Thank you for this post! I would refer anyone to Mark Rashid’s book “Nature in Horsemanship” if there’s a question as to what he thinks about positive reinforcement and clicker training. I believe the best pages for his argument against positive reinforcement training (and clicker training) are on pages 107-113.
Some highlights of his discussion are (with no scientific evidence – rather, he just gives a version of ‘horse a’ pushing ‘horse b’ around to support these statements) “…for the most part, positive reinforcement doesn’t really happen that much in nature…” and “…positive reinforcement, the way humans see it, doesn’t really exist with horses in nature.” And, at the beginning of the next paragraph, “in addition to an overall lack of positive reinforcement in the wild…” And finally, a huge generalization (and contradiction to his earlier statements) at the bottom of the same page (p. 111) “On top of that, many positive reinforcement reinforcement trained horses lack the ability to understand how to respond to any kind of pressure because little or none has been used….”
Does he mean all domestic horses have absolutely no idea of how to respond to pressure unless a human teaches them? But didn’t Mark just write that horses push other horses around when they’re with each other?
Mark also puts down positive reinforcement trainers – specifically clicker trainers – by summarizing an event he saw where a clicker trainer’s horse was over threshold and unable to shape a behavior in front of the crowd. Mark Rashid writes, “Unfortunately, because the woman had only focused on training the horse what could arguably be referred to as a series of “tricks” during their time together, instead of developing a relationship based on mutual trust, she was unable to help him when he got upset.” (p. 110)
Mark does not make any effort to understand positive reinforcement training. He probably has no clue about methods such as “Click to Calm” with Emma Parsons (which is applied successfully to horses). He seems to have such a narrow view of the equine world that he feels horses do not even relate to each other using positive reinforcement. I’d love to ask Mark why my horse (who has 24 hour turnout with 6 other horses) is one of the most friendly and relaxed of any horse in the barn where we board? We worked at every little step of becoming acclimated – building confidence at every level. But, according to Mark, this method is not a good one for helping horses handle stress. Because why? I have no clue! Maybe it’s because we actually build confidence step by step – at levels our horses can handle and understand. Maybe it’s because we’re really tuned into our horse’s emotional state so make sure we keep our horses at a level where they can learn and enjoy learning?
Or, maybe it’s just that Mark Rashid does not want to ever believe horses can actually relate to other horses in a thoughtful, supportive, and positive way.
I own this DVD and have used it to teach myself and my mare how to ground drive. I found that Mark’s use of an experienced horse to demonstrate his techniques gave a good visual for me. I was able to troubleshoot because I had a clear idea of what the end result should look like. I give the DVD a very positive review. By implementing Mark’s method of ground driving I have been able to put a solid start on my rescue mare.